Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What A Horn (long)


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Posted by Klaus on August 23, 2002 at 20:04:50:

In Reply to: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What A Horn (long) posted by Rick Denney on August 23, 2002 at 16:16:55:

This is as much a reply to Tony as to Rick, and then it might be even more on principles:

My (in-)famous B&H Imperial Brit style 3 valve comp baritone has a real rotten intonation, which it took me years to really understand.

One of the giant steps forward was, when I understood, that the 3rd partial was not flat. It was the 4th partial, which happened to be the tuning note, that was sharp. That learned me the lesson, which goes just about for all of my plenitude of Bb instruments, that the (at least for me) most stable tuning note is the 2nd partial.

No matter what a learned scholar of this board (who has been young for several decades) says: the 2+3 fingering of 3 valve compensated baritones and euphs stinks really bad. It is way too flat! For the very simple reason, that it is not technically possible to bend tubing of this diameter sharply enough to make the comp loop sitting on the back of the 2nd piston short enough. Period, finito, case closed when it comes to 3 valve comp bars and euphs. I have strong suspicions, that the same goes for 3 valve comp Eb and BBb tubas, but such ones kindly have kept themselves out of my personal experience spheres. Their application can only be defended for one specific not too musically convincing situation: The one of the mounted army bands of the UK. These too bands in contrast to the rest of the UK military bands use these 3 valve compers for euphs, Eb, and BBb basses. The control over the reins is very much more important than is the manipulation of the 1 in the traditional Brit 3+1 set-up.

Back to my baritone and its 2+3 fingering problems:

Whenever we enter the area of keys with sharps, that fingering is some sort of a leading note. Which calls for a relative sharpness compared to the tonic. The shift from 2+3 to 1+2 presents a fairly wide minor second, that has no similarity whatsoever to a leading note effect. Which forces me to finger the tonic 3. Which is often somewhat flat and tends towards dullness, if I lip it into the right slot.

Such decisions always have to be considered in the musical context. To be able to apply the right tactics on the fly, one has to have thought out some well working strategies.

Part of that work is to make oneself aware of the chordal function of any given note played at any given time, and then fix the intonation accordingly.

Some geniuses can do that by ear, without having even the slightest idea of, what they are doing. All the rest of us have to get the education, that enables us act properly in the wealth of musical situations we encounter on a daily basis.

Klaus










This is as much a reply to Tony as to Rick, and then it might be even more on principles:

My (in-)famous B&H Imperial Brit style 3 valve comp baritone has a real rotten intonation, which it took me years to really understand.

One of the giant steps forward was, when I understood, that the 3rd partial was not flat. It was the 4th partial, which happened to be the tuning note, that was sharp. That learned me the lesson, which goes just about for all of my plenitude of Bb instruments, that the (at least for me) most stable tuning note is the 2nd partial.

No matter what a learned scholar of this board (who has been young for several decades) says: the 2+3 fingering of 3 valve compensated baritones and euphs stinks really bad. It is way too flat! For the very simple reason, that it is not technically possible to bend tubing of this diameter sharply enough to make the comp loop sitting on the back of the 2nd piston short enough. Period, finito, case closed when it comes to 3 valve comp bars and euphs. I have strong suspicions, that the same goes for 3 valve comp Eb and BBb tubas, but such ones kindly have kept themselves out of my personal experience spheres. Their application can only be defended for one specific not too musically convincing situation: The one of the mounted army bands of the UK. These too bands in contrast to the rest of the UK military bands use these 3 valve compers for euphs, Eb, and BBb basses. The control over the reins is very much more important than is the manipulation of the 1 in the traditional Brit 3+1 set-up.

Back to my baritone and its 2+3 fingering problems:

Whenever we enter the area of keys with sharps, that fingering is some sort of a leading note. Which calls for a relative sharpness compared to the tonic. The shift from 2+3 to 1+2 presents a fairly wide minor second, that has no similarity whatsoever to a leading note effect. Which forces me to finger the tonic 3. Which is often somewhat flat and tends towards dullness, if I lip it into the right slot.

Such decisions always have to be considered in the musical context. To be able to apply the right tactics on the fly, one has to have thought out some well working strategies.

Part of that work is to make oneself aware of the chordal function of any given note played at any given time, and then fix the intonation accordingly.

Some geniuses can do that by ear, without having even the slightest idea of, what they are doing. All the rest of us have to get the education, that enables us act properly in the wealth of musical situations we encounter on a daily basis.

Klaus







This is as much a reply to Tony as to Rick, and then it might be even more on principles:

My (in-)famous B&H Imperial Brit style 3 valve comp baritone has a real rotten intonation, which it took me years to really understand.

One of the giant steps forward was, when I understood, that the 3rd partial was not flat. It was the 4th partial, which happened to be the tuning note, that was sharp. That learned me the lesson, which goes just about for all of my plenitude of Bb instruments, that the (at least for me) most stable tuning note is the 2nd partial.

No matter what a learned scholar of this board (who has been young for several decades) says: the 2+3 fingering of 3 valve compensated baritones and euphs stinks really bad. It is way too flat! For the very simple reason, that it is not technically possible to bend tubing of this diameter sharply enough to make the comp loop sitting on the back of the 2nd piston short enough. Period, finito, case closed when it comes to 3 valve comp bars and euphs. I have strong suspicions, that the same goes for 3 valve comp Eb and BBb tubas, but such ones kindly have kept themselves out of my personal experience spheres. Their application can only be defended for one specific not too musically convincing situation: The one of the mounted army bands of the UK. These too bands in contrast to the rest of the UK military bands use these 3 valve compers for euphs, Eb, and BBb basses. The control over the reins is very much more important than is the manipulation of the 1 in the traditional Brit 3+1 set-up.

Back to my baritone and its 2+3 fingering problems:

Whenever we enter the area of keys with sharps, that fingering is some sort of a leading note. Which calls for a relative sharpness compared to the tonic. The shift from 2+3 to 1+2 presents a fairly wide minor second, that has no similarity whatsoever to a leading note effect. Which forces me to finger the tonic 3. Which is often somewhat flat and tends towards dullness, if I lip it into the right slot.

Such decisions always have to be considered in the musical context. To be able to apply the right tactics on the fly, one has to have thought out some well working strategies.

Part of that work is to make oneself aware of the chordal function of any given note played at any given time, and then fix the intonation accordingly.

Some geniuses can do that by ear, without having even the slightest idea of, what they are doing. All the rest of us have to get the education, that enables us act properly in the wealth of musical situations we encounter on a daily basis.

Klaus













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