Posted by Rick Denney on March 09, 2003 at 11:42:16:
In Reply to: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: King 2341 Info Needed posted by Todd W. White on March 07, 2003 at 20:06:07:
I can only evaluate the way they sound from where I'm sitting when I play it, which is an approximation at best of how they sound out front. As I've said elsewhere, I enjoy and prefer instruments that give me feedback as to their external sound either by mechanical vibration of the instrument or by some other means. I'm sure there are highly skilled players out there who don't need these cues, but I do, and I suspect most of the people who would be in the market for a King BBb tuba do as well. This is a subjective opinion, of course.
(My point in listing my "credentials", of course, was to eliminate the rock-throwing on the subject. Credentials don't mean much when we are disussing things whose description can stand on the merits. And I'll add this also: When communicating in a written forum, it's best to always assume that the non-verbal cues you are missing are favorable. I may be a second-rate amateur tuba player, but I'm highly experienced in communicating with written words to people those who have attacked me--I've spent much of my career timing traffic signals in big cities--and I always give people the benefit of the doubt in that regard.)
The 1241's and 2341's that I've played (including the new ones) showed wide variability in the way they behaved (i.e., the way they felt and sounded in my lap). My most common complaint is a deadness, where there doesn't seem to be much coming out (again, from the perspective of the player) for what is going in. Most Kings I've played, I've just set down again after a minute or two with the comment, "Next." I didn't have any particular beef, but they gave me no reason to want to continue playing them. As I've said, there have been exceptions.
One of the local high schools used to have a couple of 1241's in the band room where our ensemble rehearses. These instruments were utterly unremarkable. To my eye, they looked like most vintage Kings--a bit battered. They both had the double loop on the upper third crook and the non-moveable upper crook on the first valve. I've never seen the small and large bells side by side, so I can't say which is which from memory. They seemed nearly identical to the somewhat more battered 1241 that is my favorite of all of them. The main difference was feedback to the player--the good 1241 provided that feedback to the player that the other instruments lacked.
The latest crop of the new-style 2341's also seem to have that feedback and resonance, and they seem also to be more agile, with a more consistent scale. I have noticed no degradation of the good intonation that has always been featured on the Kings.
Yes, I made a broad-brush statement, and intended it to be. I've played many 1241's and 2341's in addition to these that I've mentioned. I assume by doing so that the instruments I'm likely to run across are as likely to represent the population as the instruments anyone else is likely to run across when they are searching for a tuba. Based on my experience, a player is far more likely to get a good instrument with this year's 2341 than with an old 1241 picked at random, which is how they get picked in a used market not overflowing with them. That's why I made the comment to which you reacted. If you'll look back and the advice I've given on the subject of the new 2341's, however, you'll see that I exhort people repeatedly to try several, because they are indeed inconsistent. I'll add that the latest version from this year seems to be a bit more consistent, but I still know of a clinker or two observed by me or my friends.
I'll ask this question again: When did the 1241's go out of production in lieu of the 2341's? I've never noticed differences in the valves, but all the old-style 2341's have a two-crook third-valve branch without the upper double loop, and a moveable upper first-valve slide. All of the 1241's I've seen have a double-loop upper third-valve branch and a fixed upper first-valve crook. When was the transition?
Rick "who would rather throw ideas than rocks" Denney